Discussion:
Can I use DDS to create an SQL table name
(too old to reply)
John R. Smith, Jr.
2014-10-21 20:59:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I looked for an SQL group to post this to but did not see one so I'm going
to post it here.

I need to create a file on the iSeries using DDS that has both a physical
file name and an alias name (not sure that is the right term). Basically I
need to reference it as "INVNBR" in RPGLE FSpecs and "INVOICE_NUMBER_TABLE"
when using SQL.

Is there any way to do that with DDS?

By the way, creating the file via DDS was a mandate from a dinosaur that
refuses to learn SQL.
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Charles Wilt
2014-10-21 21:13:31 UTC
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no not really...

You can create the file with DDS, then use SQL DDL (RENAME) to give it a
long name...
Post by John R. Smith, Jr.
I looked for an SQL group to post this to but did not see one so I'm going
to post it here.
I need to create a file on the iSeries using DDS that has both a physical
file name and an alias name (not sure that is the right term). Basically I
need to reference it as "INVNBR" in RPGLE FSpecs and "INVOICE_NUMBER_TABLE"
when using SQL.
Is there any way to do that with DDS?
By the way, creating the file via DDS was a mandate from a dinosaur that
refuses to learn SQL.
--
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Vernon Hamberg
2014-10-21 21:16:08 UTC
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John

I tried something kind of crazy - I had a PF created using DDS, then I
used the RENAME TABLE SQL statement, and I was able to put the long name
on it - very cool!

So your colleague could use DDS to create the file, and you could have a
command that uses RUNSQL to do the RENAME.

Here is an example -

RENAME TABLE DP2TEST/ACEAPP TO LONGVERSIONACEAPP FOR SYSTEM NAME ACEAPP

Be careful to specify the system name - otherwise it'll be changed to
something like LONG000001 in this case.

HTH
Vern
Post by John R. Smith, Jr.
I looked for an SQL group to post this to but did not see one so I'm going
to post it here.
I need to create a file on the iSeries using DDS that has both a physical
file name and an alias name (not sure that is the right term). Basically I
need to reference it as "INVNBR" in RPGLE FSpecs and "INVOICE_NUMBER_TABLE"
when using SQL.
Is there any way to do that with DDS?
By the way, creating the file via DDS was a mandate from a dinosaur that
refuses to learn SQL.
--
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Darryl Freinkel
2014-10-21 21:57:47 UTC
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Try using the ALIAS keyword in DDS. I have not used it, but I believe its
for that purpose.
Post by Vernon Hamberg
John
I tried something kind of crazy - I had a PF created using DDS, then I
used the RENAME TABLE SQL statement, and I was able to put the long name on
it - very cool!
So your colleague could use DDS to create the file, and you could have a
command that uses RUNSQL to do the RENAME.
Here is an example -
RENAME TABLE DP2TEST/ACEAPP TO LONGVERSIONACEAPP FOR SYSTEM NAME ACEAPP
Be careful to specify the system name - otherwise it'll be changed to
something like LONG000001 in this case.
HTH
Vern
Post by John R. Smith, Jr.
I looked for an SQL group to post this to but did not see one so I'm going
to post it here.
I need to create a file on the iSeries using DDS that has both a physical
file name and an alias name (not sure that is the right term). Basically I
need to reference it as "INVNBR" in RPGLE FSpecs and
"INVOICE_NUMBER_TABLE"
when using SQL.
Is there any way to do that with DDS?
By the way, creating the file via DDS was a mandate from a dinosaur that
refuses to learn SQL.
--
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Darryl Freinkel
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Alan Campin
2014-10-21 22:15:26 UTC
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Better yet, just create your table in DDL in Ops Nav giving both short and
long names for fields and tables names. Why create tables in DDS?

Even if I am creating a table for DDS I do it that way and just get the DDS
from the table object. Beats typing all that stuff my hand.

And yes, ALIAS is the long name if you have to create it in DDS.
Post by Darryl Freinkel
Try using the ALIAS keyword in DDS. I have not used it, but I believe its
for that purpose.
Post by Vernon Hamberg
John
I tried something kind of crazy - I had a PF created using DDS, then I
used the RENAME TABLE SQL statement, and I was able to put the long name
on
Post by Vernon Hamberg
it - very cool!
So your colleague could use DDS to create the file, and you could have a
command that uses RUNSQL to do the RENAME.
Here is an example -
RENAME TABLE DP2TEST/ACEAPP TO LONGVERSIONACEAPP FOR SYSTEM NAME ACEAPP
Be careful to specify the system name - otherwise it'll be changed to
something like LONG000001 in this case.
HTH
Vern
Post by John R. Smith, Jr.
I looked for an SQL group to post this to but did not see one so I'm
going
Post by Vernon Hamberg
Post by John R. Smith, Jr.
to post it here.
I need to create a file on the iSeries using DDS that has both a
physical
Post by Vernon Hamberg
Post by John R. Smith, Jr.
file name and an alias name (not sure that is the right term).
Basically I
Post by Vernon Hamberg
Post by John R. Smith, Jr.
need to reference it as "INVNBR" in RPGLE FSpecs and
"INVOICE_NUMBER_TABLE"
when using SQL.
Is there any way to do that with DDS?
By the way, creating the file via DDS was a mandate from a dinosaur that
refuses to learn SQL.
--
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list
Post by Vernon Hamberg
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Darryl Freinkel
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r***@public.gmane.org
2014-10-22 12:43:31 UTC
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Alan,

While I agree with you if one reads past the first sentence or two of the
original post you will notice
<snip>
By the way, creating the file via DDS was a mandate from a dinosaur that
refuses to learn SQL.
</snip>


Rob Berendt
--
IBM Certified System Administrator - IBM i 6.1
Group Dekko
Dept 1600
Mail to: 2505 Dekko Drive
Garrett, IN 46738
Ship to: Dock 108
6928N 400E
Kendallville, IN 46755
http://www.dekko.com





From: Alan Campin <alan0307d-***@public.gmane.org>
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion <midrange-l-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/***@public.gmane.org>
Date: 10/21/2014 06:15 PM
Subject: Re: Can I use DDS to create an SQL table name
Sent by: "MIDRANGE-L" <midrange-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/***@public.gmane.org>



Better yet, just create your table in DDL in Ops Nav giving both short and
long names for fields and tables names. Why create tables in DDS?

Even if I am creating a table for DDS I do it that way and just get the
DDS
from the table object. Beats typing all that stuff my hand.

And yes, ALIAS is the long name if you have to create it in DDS.
Post by Darryl Freinkel
Try using the ALIAS keyword in DDS. I have not used it, but I believe its
for that purpose.
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Vernon Hamberg
Post by Vernon Hamberg
John
I tried something kind of crazy - I had a PF created using DDS, then I
used the RENAME TABLE SQL statement, and I was able to put the long name
on
Post by Vernon Hamberg
it - very cool!
So your colleague could use DDS to create the file, and you could have a
command that uses RUNSQL to do the RENAME.
Here is an example -
RENAME TABLE DP2TEST/ACEAPP TO LONGVERSIONACEAPP FOR SYSTEM NAME ACEAPP
Be careful to specify the system name - otherwise it'll be changed to
something like LONG000001 in this case.
HTH
Vern
Post by John R. Smith, Jr.
I looked for an SQL group to post this to but did not see one so I'm
going
Post by Vernon Hamberg
Post by John R. Smith, Jr.
to post it here.
I need to create a file on the iSeries using DDS that has both a
physical
Post by Vernon Hamberg
Post by John R. Smith, Jr.
file name and an alias name (not sure that is the right term).
Basically I
Post by Vernon Hamberg
Post by John R. Smith, Jr.
need to reference it as "INVNBR" in RPGLE FSpecs and
"INVOICE_NUMBER_TABLE"
when using SQL.
Is there any way to do that with DDS?
By the way, creating the file via DDS was a mandate from a dinosaur that
refuses to learn SQL.
--
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Post by Vernon Hamberg
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Darryl Freinkel
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Vernon Hamberg
2014-10-21 22:52:29 UTC
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At 7.2, ALIAS is a field-level keyword - can't use it to get the long
name of a PF.
Post by Darryl Freinkel
Try using the ALIAS keyword in DDS. I have not used it, but I believe its
for that purpose.
Post by Vernon Hamberg
John
I tried something kind of crazy - I had a PF created using DDS, then I
used the RENAME TABLE SQL statement, and I was able to put the long name on
it - very cool!
So your colleague could use DDS to create the file, and you could have a
command that uses RUNSQL to do the RENAME.
Here is an example -
RENAME TABLE DP2TEST/ACEAPP TO LONGVERSIONACEAPP FOR SYSTEM NAME ACEAPP
Be careful to specify the system name - otherwise it'll be changed to
something like LONG000001 in this case.
HTH
Vern
Post by John R. Smith, Jr.
I looked for an SQL group to post this to but did not see one so I'm going
to post it here.
I need to create a file on the iSeries using DDS that has both a physical
file name and an alias name (not sure that is the right term). Basically I
need to reference it as "INVNBR" in RPGLE FSpecs and
"INVOICE_NUMBER_TABLE"
when using SQL.
Is there any way to do that with DDS?
By the way, creating the file via DDS was a mandate from a dinosaur that
refuses to learn SQL.
--
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Nathan Andelin
2014-10-21 23:02:07 UTC
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Nice tip, Vern ... use RENAME TABLE after the file exists.

The fact that it works shouldn't be a surprise to me, I have used ALTER
TABLE to add and remove columns from tables created via DDS.

I suppose the notion of DDS being mutually exclusive from DDL and visa
versa is materially flawed. The actual database objects (files) are
identical in most respects.

Nathan.
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Henrik Rützou
2014-10-22 11:10:16 UTC
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As far as I can see ALIAS is used to assign long column names to fields.



RENAME TABLE can be used to assign long table names



Not to take up a recent discussion (on linkedin), but DDS has some
advantages over DDL and the most important are



a. DDS support EDTCDE and EDTWRD, DDL doesn't

b. DDS support CHGPF making Change Management simple, DDL doesn't

c. DDS support Referential Information stored prior to V7R1, DDL requires
V7R1 or later



As Nathan writes the DB objects created is more or less identical so there
is nothing that prevents creating DB objects with DDS and afterward alters
them with DDL.



Besides that there are tons of DDS out there and converting these to DDL is
not only a waste of time but may also interfere with existing Change
Management systems.



I have looked into making a Data Definition/Change Management system based
on DDL and that is far more complicated than initial meets the eye because
the structure of SQL where columns and its properties can't be defined in a
single statement and SQL doesn't have the automatization level that
DDS/CHGPF (that implement all changes to a DB object in one command) has.



In fact if we want to make a Data Definition system with build in Change
Management we will need some kind of markup language similar to DDS
(probably XML) where we automatically can generate the DDL’s needed for
changes made to different versions of the DB otherwise we will code
ourselves to death.



And here comes the funny thing, guess what DDS/CHGPF runs under the hood?
DB2 UDB SQL Basic Services (QSYS/QSQSBAS)! So why reinvent the wheel?



Many things are hidden on IBM I. Query runs SQL under the hood, ILE program
compilers doesn’t generate MI code but an intermediate W-code that compiles
to the MI version of the OS when we either compile or install an object or
JIT compiles it after installation (that’s why we can move objects between
releases) and so forth. Java has the same facility. It comes compiled as
java bytecode and is translated into specific MI by the JVM. PASE (that
also runs the JVM) is actually a AIX/UNIX Virtual Machine that is why
platforms like Node.JS that first was ported from Linux to AIX also runs on
IBM I with very little effort.



Many regards SQL/DDL as a new kid in town but it is actual first described
in 1970 and became an ANSI standard in 1986 and an ISO standard in 1987
where DDS origins from 1979 and even if it IBM proprietary it is still
widely used to describe DB, DSPF, PRTF, RPGOA interfaces etc. so as long as
we are on IBM I and codes in ILE RPG/COBOL there is no way we can throw the
baby out with the bathwater.



An intermediate approach could be – combine it!
Post by Nathan Andelin
Nice tip, Vern ... use RENAME TABLE after the file exists.
The fact that it works shouldn't be a surprise to me, I have used ALTER
TABLE to add and remove columns from tables created via DDS.
I suppose the notion of DDS being mutually exclusive from DDL and visa
versa is materially flawed. The actual database objects (files) are
identical in most respects.
Nathan.
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Regards,
Henrik Rützou

http://powerEXT.com <http://powerext.com/>
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Vernon Hamberg
2014-10-22 12:44:59 UTC
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+1

As for change management, we do use Turnover - and that does manage
changes to a table - I haven't had to pay too much attention to all that
is done. But what we do is to include the CREATE TABLE and ALTER TABLE
statements that add text and column headings to the several columns.

It is not as compact as DDS but it does work.

I don't know if TO uses CHGPF in some situations - and I don't need to
concern myself with it - I do have a feeling that what usually happens
on a production system is to copy off the data, delete the old
file/table, then create it again and copy the data back. I also suspect
that CHGPF and ALTER TABLE do something like that.

Anyhow, Henrik, I agree with your blended approach.

Cheers
Vern
Post by Henrik Rützou
As far as I can see ALIAS is used to assign long column names to fields.
RENAME TABLE can be used to assign long table names
Not to take up a recent discussion (on linkedin), but DDS has some
advantages over DDL and the most important are
a. DDS support EDTCDE and EDTWRD, DDL doesn't
b. DDS support CHGPF making Change Management simple, DDL doesn't
c. DDS support Referential Information stored prior to V7R1, DDL requires
V7R1 or later
As Nathan writes the DB objects created is more or less identical so there
is nothing that prevents creating DB objects with DDS and afterward alters
them with DDL.
Besides that there are tons of DDS out there and converting these to DDL is
not only a waste of time but may also interfere with existing Change
Management systems.
I have looked into making a Data Definition/Change Management system based
on DDL and that is far more complicated than initial meets the eye because
the structure of SQL where columns and its properties can't be defined in a
single statement and SQL doesn't have the automatization level that
DDS/CHGPF (that implement all changes to a DB object in one command) has.
In fact if we want to make a Data Definition system with build in Change
Management we will need some kind of markup language similar to DDS
(probably XML) where we automatically can generate the DDL’s needed for
changes made to different versions of the DB otherwise we will code
ourselves to death.
And here comes the funny thing, guess what DDS/CHGPF runs under the hood?
DB2 UDB SQL Basic Services (QSYS/QSQSBAS)! So why reinvent the wheel?
Many things are hidden on IBM I. Query runs SQL under the hood, ILE program
compilers doesn’t generate MI code but an intermediate W-code that compiles
to the MI version of the OS when we either compile or install an object or
JIT compiles it after installation (that’s why we can move objects between
releases) and so forth. Java has the same facility. It comes compiled as
java bytecode and is translated into specific MI by the JVM. PASE (that
also runs the JVM) is actually a AIX/UNIX Virtual Machine that is why
platforms like Node.JS that first was ported from Linux to AIX also runs on
IBM I with very little effort.
Many regards SQL/DDL as a new kid in town but it is actual first described
in 1970 and became an ANSI standard in 1986 and an ISO standard in 1987
where DDS origins from 1979 and even if it IBM proprietary it is still
widely used to describe DB, DSPF, PRTF, RPGOA interfaces etc. so as long as
we are on IBM I and codes in ILE RPG/COBOL there is no way we can throw the
baby out with the bathwater.
An intermediate approach could be – combine it!
Post by Nathan Andelin
Nice tip, Vern ... use RENAME TABLE after the file exists.
The fact that it works shouldn't be a surprise to me, I have used ALTER
TABLE to add and remove columns from tables created via DDS.
I suppose the notion of DDS being mutually exclusive from DDL and visa
versa is materially flawed. The actual database objects (files) are
identical in most respects.
Nathan.
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r***@public.gmane.org
2014-10-22 13:01:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
How many utilities really respect EDTCDE and EDTWRD? Are these 5250 based
utilities only?

I think the simplicity of change management is up to the beholder. IOW I
think it involves a whole new paradigm shift.
Both DDS and DDL support the system catalog. As long as you have evolved
out of the primordial swamp and no longer prefix each column name in each
table differently, like calling the same column IXCNAM, RCCNAM, OECNAM in
each table where the first two characters indicate table, it's quite easy
to use the system catalog and find where the column is used, and alter it
accordingly.

As far as item c and the referential information are you talking about the
field reference file methodology? Since the advent of the system catalog
(V3R1) is it really that great of a thing anymore?

One of the biggest problems I have with DDS is that so much is not in it
that people do not take advantage. Sure, you can do ADDPFCST and whatnot
but since it is not imbedded into DDS people don't use it. It's easier
for people to consider it when it is part of DDL and it's simple enough
that even the prompter from STRSQL can handle a bulk of it.


Rob Berendt
--
IBM Certified System Administrator - IBM i 6.1
Group Dekko
Dept 1600
Mail to: 2505 Dekko Drive
Garrett, IN 46738
Ship to: Dock 108
6928N 400E
Kendallville, IN 46755
http://www.dekko.com





From: Henrik Rützou <***@way2trade.eu>
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion <midrange-***@midrange.com>
Date: 10/22/2014 07:10 AM
Subject: Re: Can I use DDS to create an SQL table name
Sent by: "MIDRANGE-L" <midrange-l-***@midrange.com>



As far as I can see ALIAS is used to assign long column names to fields.



RENAME TABLE can be used to assign long table names



Not to take up a recent discussion (on linkedin), but DDS has some
advantages over DDL and the most important are



a. DDS support EDTCDE and EDTWRD, DDL doesn't

b. DDS support CHGPF making Change Management simple, DDL doesn't

c. DDS support Referential Information stored prior to V7R1, DDL requires
V7R1 or later



As Nathan writes the DB objects created is more or less identical so there
is nothing that prevents creating DB objects with DDS and afterward alters
them with DDL.



Besides that there are tons of DDS out there and converting these to DDL
is
not only a waste of time but may also interfere with existing Change
Management systems.



I have looked into making a Data Definition/Change Management system based
on DDL and that is far more complicated than initial meets the eye because
the structure of SQL where columns and its properties can't be defined in
a
single statement and SQL doesn't have the automatization level that
DDS/CHGPF (that implement all changes to a DB object in one command) has.



In fact if we want to make a Data Definition system with build in Change
Management we will need some kind of markup language similar to DDS
(probably XML) where we automatically can generate the DDL’s needed for
changes made to different versions of the DB otherwise we will code
ourselves to death.



And here comes the funny thing, guess what DDS/CHGPF runs under the hood?
DB2 UDB SQL Basic Services (QSYS/QSQSBAS)! So why reinvent the wheel?



Many things are hidden on IBM I. Query runs SQL under the hood, ILE
program
compilers doesn’t generate MI code but an intermediate W-code that
compiles
to the MI version of the OS when we either compile or install an object or
JIT compiles it after installation (that’s why we can move objects between
releases) and so forth. Java has the same facility. It comes compiled as
java bytecode and is translated into specific MI by the JVM. PASE (that
also runs the JVM) is actually a AIX/UNIX Virtual Machine that is why
platforms like Node.JS that first was ported from Linux to AIX also runs
on
IBM I with very little effort.



Many regards SQL/DDL as a new kid in town but it is actual first described
in 1970 and became an ANSI standard in 1986 and an ISO standard in 1987
where DDS origins from 1979 and even if it IBM proprietary it is still
widely used to describe DB, DSPF, PRTF, RPGOA interfaces etc. so as long
as
we are on IBM I and codes in ILE RPG/COBOL there is no way we can throw
the
baby out with the bathwater.



An intermediate approach could be – combine it!
Post by Nathan Andelin
Nice tip, Vern ... use RENAME TABLE after the file exists.
The fact that it works shouldn't be a surprise to me, I have used ALTER
TABLE to add and remove columns from tables created via DDS.
I suppose the notion of DDS being mutually exclusive from DDL and visa
versa is materially flawed. The actual database objects (files) are
identical in most respects.
Nathan.
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Luis Rodriguez
2014-10-22 13:19:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Rob,
Post by r***@public.gmane.org
How many utilities really respect EDTCDE and EDTWRD? Are these 5250 based
utilities only?
Concur wholeheartedly with your appreciation. Nowadays most (if not all) of
my reports are done as Excel (.CSV) files, and my interactive queries are
either client/server or web based, where the EDTCDE info is "lost".

Also, A fact that I think is sometimes overlooked is the ability to
retrieve the SQL source code for a particular *file object. I have lost
count of how many times the proper source code for the file is either
"lost", outdated or simply modified without being sent to the production
system. Yes, I know that proper change management is at fault here, but in
my experience that is a problem that happens even in most "well managed"
sites.

Regards,

Luis

Luis Rodriguez
IBM Certified Systems Expert — eServer i5 iSeries
--
Post by r***@public.gmane.org
How many utilities really respect EDTCDE and EDTWRD? Are these 5250 based
utilities only?
I think the simplicity of change management is up to the beholder. IOW I
think it involves a whole new paradigm shift.
Both DDS and DDL support the system catalog. As long as you have evolved
out of the primordial swamp and no longer prefix each column name in each
table differently, like calling the same column IXCNAM, RCCNAM, OECNAM in
each table where the first two characters indicate table, it's quite easy
to use the system catalog and find where the column is used, and alter it
accordingly.
As far as item c and the referential information are you talking about the
field reference file methodology? Since the advent of the system catalog
(V3R1) is it really that great of a thing anymore?
One of the biggest problems I have with DDS is that so much is not in it
that people do not take advantage. Sure, you can do ADDPFCST and whatnot
but since it is not imbedded into DDS people don't use it. It's easier
for people to consider it when it is part of DDL and it's simple enough
that even the prompter from STRSQL can handle a bulk of it.
Rob Berendt
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Group Dekko
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Mail to: 2505 Dekko Drive
Garrett, IN 46738
Ship to: Dock 108
6928N 400E
Kendallville, IN 46755
http://www.dekko.com
Date: 10/22/2014 07:10 AM
Subject: Re: Can I use DDS to create an SQL table name
As far as I can see ALIAS is used to assign long column names to fields.
RENAME TABLE can be used to assign long table names
Not to take up a recent discussion (on linkedin), but DDS has some
advantages over DDL and the most important are
a. DDS support EDTCDE and EDTWRD, DDL doesn't
b. DDS support CHGPF making Change Management simple, DDL doesn't
c. DDS support Referential Information stored prior to V7R1, DDL requires
V7R1 or later
As Nathan writes the DB objects created is more or less identical so there
is nothing that prevents creating DB objects with DDS and afterward alters
them with DDL.
Besides that there are tons of DDS out there and converting these to DDL is
not only a waste of time but may also interfere with existing Change
Management systems.
I have looked into making a Data Definition/Change Management system based
on DDL and that is far more complicated than initial meets the eye because
the structure of SQL where columns and its properties can't be defined in a
single statement and SQL doesn't have the automatization level that
DDS/CHGPF (that implement all changes to a DB object in one command) has.
In fact if we want to make a Data Definition system with build in Change
Management we will need some kind of markup language similar to DDS
(probably XML) where we automatically can generate the DDL’s needed for
changes made to different versions of the DB otherwise we will code
ourselves to death.
And here comes the funny thing, guess what DDS/CHGPF runs under the hood?
DB2 UDB SQL Basic Services (QSYS/QSQSBAS)! So why reinvent the wheel?
Many things are hidden on IBM I. Query runs SQL under the hood, ILE program
compilers doesn’t generate MI code but an intermediate W-code that compiles
to the MI version of the OS when we either compile or install an object or
JIT compiles it after installation (that’s why we can move objects between
releases) and so forth. Java has the same facility. It comes compiled as
java bytecode and is translated into specific MI by the JVM. PASE (that
also runs the JVM) is actually a AIX/UNIX Virtual Machine that is why
platforms like Node.JS that first was ported from Linux to AIX also runs on
IBM I with very little effort.
Many regards SQL/DDL as a new kid in town but it is actual first described
in 1970 and became an ANSI standard in 1986 and an ISO standard in 1987
where DDS origins from 1979 and even if it IBM proprietary it is still
widely used to describe DB, DSPF, PRTF, RPGOA interfaces etc. so as long as
we are on IBM I and codes in ILE RPG/COBOL there is no way we can throw the
baby out with the bathwater.
An intermediate approach could be – combine it!
Post by Nathan Andelin
Nice tip, Vern ... use RENAME TABLE after the file exists.
The fact that it works shouldn't be a surprise to me, I have used ALTER
TABLE to add and remove columns from tables created via DDS.
I suppose the notion of DDS being mutually exclusive from DDL and visa
versa is materially flawed. The actual database objects (files) are
identical in most respects.
Nathan.
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John R. Smith, Jr.
2014-10-22 13:47:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I want to thank everyone for their insight into this. It would be so much easier if I could change the mid of the dinosaur. :)

I did want to add as a follow-up, that there is a potential issue with change management that needs to be researched before you attempt this. I found that when you create the file via CRTPF and then do the SQL rename, the file is available via SQL with both names as expected. However, if you do a subsequent CRTPF like most CM packages, the long file name from the rename is GONE.

I did find that I can do a CREATE ALIAS for the file and it basically works the same way from the SQL perspective. If someone knows different, please let me know. With the CREATE ALIAS, doing a CRTPF or CHGPF does not affect the alias and it is still available. The downside that I can see to this is if you delete the PF, the alias remains out there and if the file is recreated later via CRTPF, the link is still intact. I see this as potentially causing some weird results if a file is deleted and the file name is reused somewhere down the road and something tries to hit the old version of the file via the alias.

All that said, I'll have to see if I can sneak a CREATE ALIAS past the dinosaur at least until IBM adds a way of doing the long file name to the DDS (is there a way to request this as a future enhancement...assuming IBM is still enhancing DDS?).
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r***@public.gmane.org
2014-10-22 13:54:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
<snip>
(is there a way to request this as a future enhancement...assuming IBM is
still enhancing DDS?).
</snip>

There are two ways to request this as an enhancement. One requires you to
be a member of COMMON. If you are (or your local user group is) go to
COMMON.ORG log in, and go into the 'Members Only' section. The other way
is from IBM directly at
https://www-912.ibm.com/r_dir/ReqDesChange.nsf/Request_for_Design_Change?OpenForm

'assuming that IBM is still enhancing DDS'. Not a safe assumption...


Rob Berendt
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Group Dekko
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Mail to: 2505 Dekko Drive
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From: "John R. Smith, Jr." <smith5646-***@public.gmane.org>
To: "'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'"
<midrange-l-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/***@public.gmane.org>
Date: 10/22/2014 09:47 AM
Subject: RE: Can I use DDS to create an SQL table name
Sent by: "MIDRANGE-L" <midrange-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/***@public.gmane.org>



I want to thank everyone for their insight into this. It would be so much
easier if I could change the mid of the dinosaur. :)

I did want to add as a follow-up, that there is a potential issue with
change management that needs to be researched before you attempt this. I
found that when you create the file via CRTPF and then do the SQL rename,
the file is available via SQL with both names as expected. However, if
you do a subsequent CRTPF like most CM packages, the long file name from
the rename is GONE.

I did find that I can do a CREATE ALIAS for the file and it basically
works the same way from the SQL perspective. If someone knows different,
please let me know. With the CREATE ALIAS, doing a CRTPF or CHGPF does
not affect the alias and it is still available. The downside that I can
see to this is if you delete the PF, the alias remains out there and if
the file is recreated later via CRTPF, the link is still intact. I see
this as potentially causing some weird results if a file is deleted and
the file name is reused somewhere down the road and something tries to hit
the old version of the file via the alias.

All that said, I'll have to see if I can sneak a CREATE ALIAS past the
dinosaur at least until IBM adds a way of doing the long file name to the
DDS (is there a way to request this as a future enhancement...assuming IBM
is still enhancing DDS?).
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r***@public.gmane.org
2014-10-22 14:04:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
If you're going to ask for an enhancement to DDS here's another one.
Request that they add the capability to imbed CL commands. SQL does this
like the following script that can be run with RUNSQLSTM

CL:DSPOBJD OBJ(<Lib>/<FileName>) OBJTYPE(*FILE) OUTPUT(*OUTFILE)
OUTFILE(QTEMP/FILELIST);
SELECT *
FROM QTEMP.FILELIST;

Maybe commands within DDS might get some of those people to imbed ADDPFCST
and whatnot. Of course, handling this whether CHGPF or CRTPF were run
would be interesting.

Rob Berendt
--
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Group Dekko
Dept 1600
Mail to: 2505 Dekko Drive
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Henrik Rützou
2014-10-22 14:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Charles



Any SW product should have CM build into the product itself then there were
no need to invest in expensive packages that the vendor should provide.
Have you ever head of SWMA?
Post by r***@public.gmane.org
If you're going to ask for an enhancement to DDS here's another one.
Request that they add the capability to imbed CL commands. SQL does this
like the following script that can be run with RUNSQLSTM
CL:DSPOBJD OBJ(<Lib>/<FileName>) OBJTYPE(*FILE) OUTPUT(*OUTFILE)
OUTFILE(QTEMP/FILELIST);
SELECT *
FROM QTEMP.FILELIST;
Maybe commands within DDS might get some of those people to imbed ADDPFCST
and whatnot. Of course, handling this whether CHGPF or CRTPF were run
would be interesting.
Rob Berendt
--
IBM Certified System Administrator - IBM i 6.1
Group Dekko
Dept 1600
Mail to: 2505 Dekko Drive
Garrett, IN 46738
Ship to: Dock 108
6928N 400E
Kendallville, IN 46755
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Charles Wilt
2014-10-22 14:33:05 UTC
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There's arguments for and against...
Post by Henrik Rützou
Charles
Any SW product should have CM build into the product itself then there were
no need to invest in expensive packages that the vendor should provide.
Have you ever head of SWMA?
Post by r***@public.gmane.org
If you're going to ask for an enhancement to DDS here's another one.
Request that they add the capability to imbed CL commands. SQL does this
like the following script that can be run with RUNSQLSTM
CL:DSPOBJD OBJ(<Lib>/<FileName>) OBJTYPE(*FILE) OUTPUT(*OUTFILE)
OUTFILE(QTEMP/FILELIST);
SELECT *
FROM QTEMP.FILELIST;
Maybe commands within DDS might get some of those people to imbed
ADDPFCST
Post by r***@public.gmane.org
and whatnot. Of course, handling this whether CHGPF or CRTPF were run
would be interesting.
Rob Berendt
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Group Dekko
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Charles Wilt
2014-10-22 15:05:00 UTC
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Raw Message
Personally I'd prefer a software vendor to partner with a few existing CM
vendors.

Build vs. buy. If they write there own, it's going to get the short shaft
on resources vs. the business app. Additionally, while it might work ok or
even great for their app it's likely to fall short for anything you want to
build on top of the main app.

I've seen JDE's and SAP's CM. I was not impressed.

At least for SAP, there's a whole host of third party add-on / replacement
products to make up for shortcomings in the built in CM.

Charles
Post by Charles Wilt
There's arguments for and against...
Post by Henrik Rützou
Charles
Any SW product should have CM build into the product itself then there were
no need to invest in expensive packages that the vendor should provide.
Have you ever head of SWMA?
Post by r***@public.gmane.org
If you're going to ask for an enhancement to DDS here's another one.
Request that they add the capability to imbed CL commands. SQL does
this
Post by r***@public.gmane.org
like the following script that can be run with RUNSQLSTM
CL:DSPOBJD OBJ(<Lib>/<FileName>) OBJTYPE(*FILE) OUTPUT(*OUTFILE)
OUTFILE(QTEMP/FILELIST);
SELECT *
FROM QTEMP.FILELIST;
Maybe commands within DDS might get some of those people to imbed
ADDPFCST
Post by r***@public.gmane.org
and whatnot. Of course, handling this whether CHGPF or CRTPF were run
would be interesting.
Rob Berendt
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Group Dekko
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John Yeung
2014-10-22 14:11:12 UTC
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Post by r***@public.gmane.org
How many utilities really respect EDTCDE and EDTWRD?
Are these 5250 based utilities only?
I agree with you and Luis that this is a relatively minor advantage of DDS.

However, I do have one utility to throw into the (small) pile of those
that do use EDTCDE and EDTWRD, and that's my Python script for copying
data into Excel:

https://bitbucket.org/jky/cpytoxlsf.py

Because our system uses predominantly numeric fields to store dates, I
look for hints, such as EDTWRD(' - - '). (The script does handle
proper date fields as well.) I also support a few edit codes which
determine how the column will be formatted.

I also use COLHDG and TEXT from the DDS. I imagine there are DDL
counterparts to these, but I (currently) don't use them, because we're
almost exclusively a DDS shop.

John Y.
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Charles Wilt
2014-10-22 14:01:31 UTC
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Raw Message
Just wanted to address a couple of points
Post by Henrik Rützou
Besides that there are tons of DDS out there and converting these to DDL is
not only a waste of time but may also interfere with existing Change
Management systems.
​I would expect CM system to be able to handle this. I know Aldon does. I
check out a DDS PF object, change it DDL *TABLE​ and promote it back. No
issues. Just like I can check out a OPM RPG III object and convert it to
an ILE RPG IV *MODULE or *PGM object.
Post by Henrik Rützou
I have looked into making a Data Definition/Change Management system based
on DDL and that is far more complicated than initial meets the eye because
the structure of SQL where columns and its properties can't be defined in a
single statement and SQL doesn't have the automatization level that
DDS/CHGPF (that implement all changes to a DB object in one command) has.
​Again, a smart enough CM can handle this. Aldon checks to see rather or
not it can use CHGPF or ALTER TABLE before resorting to recreating the file
or table.​
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John R. Smith, Jr.
2014-10-22 14:20:16 UTC
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Raw Message
I'm confused.

"I would expect CM system to be able to handle this. I know Aldon does. I check out a DDS PF object, change it DDL *TABLE and promote it back."

Don't you have to convert the DDS to DDL to do this (or am I confused on what DDL is)? That would be the waste of time.


-----Original Message-----
From: MIDRANGE-L [mailto:midrange-l-***@midrange.com] On Behalf Of Charles Wilt
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:02 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: Re: Can I use DDS to create an SQL table name

Just wanted to address a couple of points
Post by Henrik Rützou
Besides that there are tons of DDS out there and converting these to
DDL is not only a waste of time but may also interfere with existing
Change Management systems.
​I would expect CM system to be able to handle this. I know Aldon does. I check out a DDS PF object, change it DDL *TABLE​ and promote it back. No issues. Just like I can check out a OPM RPG III object and convert it to an ILE RPG IV *MODULE or *PGM object.
Post by Henrik Rützou
I have looked into making a Data Definition/Change Management system
based on DDL and that is far more complicated than initial meets the
eye because the structure of SQL where columns and its properties
can't be defined in a single statement and SQL doesn't have the
automatization level that DDS/CHGPF (that implement all changes to a DB object in one command) has.
​Again, a smart enough CM can handle this. Aldon checks to see rather or not it can use CHGPF or ALTER TABLE before resorting to recreating the file or table.​
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Charles Wilt
2014-10-22 14:29:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Yes, you have to convert the source. But Aldon includes a utility that
invokes the Generate Data Definition Language (QSQGNDDL) API.

I usually have a reason for converting from DDS to DDL. So the 15 seconds
it takes isn't a waste.

Charles
Post by John R. Smith, Jr.
I'm confused.
"I would expect CM system to be able to handle this. I know Aldon does. I
check out a DDS PF object, change it DDL *TABLE and promote it back."
Don't you have to convert the DDS to DDL to do this (or am I confused on
what DDL is)? That would be the waste of time.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:02 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: Re: Can I use DDS to create an SQL table name
Just wanted to address a couple of points
Post by Henrik Rützou
Besides that there are tons of DDS out there and converting these to
DDL is not only a waste of time but may also interfere with existing
Change Management systems.
​I would expect CM system to be able to handle this. I know Aldon does. I
check out a DDS PF object, change it DDL *TABLE​ and promote it back. No
issues. Just like I can check out a OPM RPG III object and convert it to
an ILE RPG IV *MODULE or *PGM object.
Post by Henrik Rützou
I have looked into making a Data Definition/Change Management system
based on DDL and that is far more complicated than initial meets the
eye because the structure of SQL where columns and its properties
can't be defined in a single statement and SQL doesn't have the
automatization level that DDS/CHGPF (that implement all changes to a DB
object in one command) has.
​Again, a smart enough CM can handle this. Aldon checks to see rather or
not it can use CHGPF or ALTER TABLE before resorting to recreating the file
or table.​
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Jeffrey Tickner
2014-10-22 15:16:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Most but not all CM systems can handle this, I know TurnOver can (with some manual intervention) but it doesn’t handle CHGPF or ALTER TABLE very gracefully.
One thing I would point out is that is that the data in a PF may not copy successfully to a TABLE during conversion, because the PF can store incorrect data while you can’t write incorrect data to a TABLE.
Arcad Skipper currently supports manual conversion but we have now automated it with TransformerDB and we have a new function to check the data in the PF to be converted, identify problems and even specify what program is writing the problem data. We also enhanced the functionality of the ‘conversion' API and handle things like keys.
Thanks
Jeff Tickner
Arcad Software
date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 10:20:16 -0400
subject: RE: Can I use DDS to create an SQL table name
I'm confused.
"I would expect CM system to be able to handle this. I know Aldon does. I check out a DDS PF object, change it DDL *TABLE and promote it back."
Don't you have to convert the DDS to DDL to do this (or am I confused on what DDL is)? That would be the waste of time.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:02 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: Re: Can I use DDS to create an SQL table name
Just wanted to address a couple of points
Post by Henrik Rützou
Besides that there are tons of DDS out there and converting these to
DDL is not only a waste of time but may also interfere with existing
Change Management systems.
?I would expect CM system to be able to handle this. I know Aldon does. I check out a DDS PF object, change it DDL *TABLE? and promote it back. No issues. Just like I can check out a OPM RPG III object and convert it to an ILE RPG IV *MODULE or *PGM object.
Post by Henrik Rützou
I have looked into making a Data Definition/Change Management system
based on DDL and that is far more complicated than initial meets the
eye because the structure of SQL where columns and its properties
can't be defined in a single statement and SQL doesn't have the
automatization level that DDS/CHGPF (that implement all changes to a DB object in one command) has.
?Again, a smart enough CM can handle this. Aldon checks to see rather or not it can use CHGPF or ALTER TABLE before resorting to recreating the file or table.?
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